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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 20:10 ( . )

Hey,I wan't to build an amp loud enough to play with a loud drummer.The only tube amp I've been able to use was an 18 watt lite II(the most powerful tube amp I've built).It worked good but no clean headroom.I have the parts to build a paralell SE 30 watt amp and my question is does anyone have live experience with this type of amp? Thanks Spyder

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 20:20 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 20:10, Spyder wrote :
Hey,I wan't to build an amp loud enough to play with a loud drummer.The only tube amp I've been able to use was an 18 watt lite II(the most powerful tube amp I've built).It worked good but no clean headroom.I have the parts to build a paralell SE 30 watt amp and my question is does anyone have live experience with this type of amp? Thanks Spyder
--



What speakers were you running with the 18 watt that it was not loud enough?

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 20:35 ( . )

I have a 4-10 with celestions but the 18 watt lite was loudest with a 1-12" sammi.I may have to upgrade the cheapo speakers in the 4-10.I'm hopping to get some (small town,It don't come easy)cleans live with a 30 watt Paralell se.Spyder

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 21:14 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 20:35, Spyder wrote :
I have a 4-10 with celestions but the 18 watt lite was loudest with a 1-12" sammi.I may have to upgrade the cheapo speakers in the 4-10.I'm hopping to get some (small town,It don't come easy)cleans live with a 30 watt Paralell se.Spyder
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I gigged all last summer on a 12 watt amp. i think a good strategy would be to either upgrade your speakers or get a 4x12 with more sensitive speakers. Moving from 18 to 30 watts will hardly do anything.

If you have 4 speakers that are rated at 95dB (typical for 10" speakers) then moving from 18 watts to 30 watts will only buy you 2.2dB more volume.

In comparison, changing from 95dB speakers to 99dB and keeping the 18 Watts will get you 4dB more, which is still not huge, but it is twice as good as building up a whole new amp.

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 21:24 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 21:14, AletheianAlex wrote :
On 03/10/2007 @ 20:35, Spyder wrote :
: I have a 4-10 with celestions but the 18 watt lite was loudest with a 1-12" sammi.I may have to upgrade the cheapo speakers in the 4-10.I'm hopping to get some (small town,It don't come easy)cleans live with a 30 watt Paralell se.Spyder
: --
:
:

:
: I gigged all last summer on a 12 watt amp. i think a good strategy would be to either upgrade your speakers or get a 4x12 with more sensitive speakers. Moving from 18 to 30 watts will hardly do anything.
:
: If you have 4 speakers that are rated at 95dB (typical for 10" speakers) then moving from 18 watts to 30 watts will only buy you 2.2dB more volume.
:
: In comparison, changing from 95dB speakers to 99dB and keeping the 18 Watts will get you 4dB more, which is still not huge, but it is twice as good as building up a whole new amp.
--

Do you have any suggestions for some good 10" speakers?Spyder

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 21:28 ( . )

What music do you play?

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 22:09 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 21:28, AletheianAlex wrote :
What music do you play?
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Classic rock(AC/DC,Led Zeppelin ZZ top),I don't have a problem getting distorted volume just clean volume.We been playing John Cougar "Small town" and Ringo starr "It Don't Come Easy"Cream "badge".I'm using a 100 watt SS amp But I don't like it's clean tone.I only have one of my builds left An HO(I sold 2 18 watts and a P-1 to some very happy people) I plan on converting it to a SEL.I have a 1-12 cab with a cheap jensen I'm not using I need a good speaker for it.Spyder

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 22:42 ( . )

As far as bang-for-the-buck and selection, the Eminence Redcoat/Patriot series are hard to beat. If you are looking for volume, make sure to get something in the 99-101dB sensitivity range.

Here are some "for instances":

100dB sensitivity:
1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 1 watt = 100dB volume at 1 meter
1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 10 watts = 110dB volume at 1 meter
1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 100 watts = 120dB volume at 1 meter

4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 1 watt = 106dB volume at 1 meter
4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 10 watts = 116dB volume at 1 meter
4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 100 watts = 126dB volume at 1 meter

95dB sensitivity:
1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 1 watt = 95dB volume at 1 meter
1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 10 watts = 105dB volume at 1 meter
1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 100 watts = 115dB volume at 1 meter

4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 1 watt = 101dB volume at 1 meter
4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 10 watts = 111dB volume at 1 meter
4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 100 watts = 121dB volume at 1 meter

So you can see that ONE 100dB speaker driven at 10 watts is just as loud as FOUR 95dB speakers driven at 10 watts.

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sat, Mar 10th, 2007 @ 23:03 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 22:42, AletheianAlex wrote :
As far as bang-for-the-buck and selection, the Eminence Redcoat/Patriot series are hard to beat. If you are looking for volume, make sure to get something in the 99-101dB sensitivity range.
:
: Here are some "for instances":
:
: 100dB sensitivity:
: 1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 1 watt = 100dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 10 watts = 110dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 100 watts = 120dB volume at 1 meter
:
: 4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 1 watt = 106dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 10 watts = 116dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 100 watts = 126dB volume at 1 meter
:
: 95dB sensitivity:
: 1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 1 watt = 95dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 10 watts = 105dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 100 watts = 115dB volume at 1 meter
:
: 4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 1 watt = 101dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 10 watts = 111dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 100 watts = 121dB volume at 1 meter
:
: So you can see that ONE 100dB speaker driven at 10 watts is just as loud as FOUR 95dB speakers driven at 10 watts.
--

Very usefull info.What db level do I need to not be overpowered by a loud drummer?Spyder

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Sun, Mar 11th, 2007 @ 13:08 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 23:03, Spyder wrote ::
Very usefull info.


No problem. Here, read chapter 2: [link]

On 03/10/2007 @ 23:03, Spyder wrote :
What db level do I need to not be overpowered by a loud drummer?Spyder
--

That depends on the drummer, the room, etc. The drums themselves are not very loud, but cymbals are right smack in the most sensitive part of the human hearing range, so they can drown things out no matter what if you have a drummer that just HAS to ride on a china cymbal all night.

every time you double your distance from the source of a sound, it goes down about 6dB (about half), so even if too freaking loud for yourself at an ear splitting 120dB, your poor bass player 30 feet away may barely hear you over the drums... that is what monitors are for.

If you REALLY want to know, walk around the room with an SPL meter when your drummer is playing. I used to be a front of house engineer before I turned musician full time, so i have always had one, but they are 35-50 bucks if you don't.

I have found that with a 2x12 cab with 10-20 watts, i don't quite have anough headroom, but with a 4x12 and sensitive speakers, it is good enough for me. That's 106-110dB at 3 meters, and any louder than that... I start yelling at thye soundguys and the rest of the band to turn down so that we don't go deaf after a year. If you DON'T have earplugs in... 110db will cause permanant damage to your hearing after a 30 minute set, and 106 db will do it in a little less than an hour! So i don't want to damage my hearing or the hearing of some poor kids in the front row. I wear -20db earplugs, so they cut it down to 90dB, which you can take without permenant hearing damage.

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE? *** FAQ'
Author:Pete Allen (registered user: 895 posts )
Date: Mon, Mar 12th, 2007 @ 14:51 ( . )

I know that some of this is in the FAQ already, but the bit about multiple speakers is cool! Thanks Alex!

Pete

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'This needs to be added to the FAQs'
Author:Zaphod (guest: search)
Date: Mon, Jul 02nd, 2007 @ 09:51 ( . )

On 03/10/2007 @ 22:42, AletheianAlex wrote :
:
: Here are some "for instances":
:
: 100dB sensitivity:
: 1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 1 watt = 100dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 10 watts = 110dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 100dB driven at 100 watts = 120dB volume at 1 meter
:
: 4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 1 watt = 106dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 10 watts = 116dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 100dB driven at 100 watts = 126dB volume at 1 meter
:
: 95dB sensitivity:
: 1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 1 watt = 95dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 10 watts = 105dB volume at 1 meter
: 1 speaker rated at 95dB driven at 100 watts = 115dB volume at 1 meter
:
: 4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 1 watt = 101dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 10 watts = 111dB volume at 1 meter
: 4 speakers rated at 95dB driven at 100 watts = 121dB volume at 1 meter
:
: So you can see that ONE 100dB speaker driven at 10 watts is just as loud as FOUR 95dB speakers driven at 10 watts.
:

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Mike Sulzer (registered user: 399 posts )
Date: Sun, Mar 11th, 2007 @ 20:41 ( . )

"Do you have any suggestions for some good 10" speakers?Spyder"

12" inch speakers are maybe 3db more efficient than 10" a a general rule. About like like doubling your amp power.

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sun, Mar 11th, 2007 @ 21:40 ( . )

Hey I found a 12" 103 db speaker"eminence red coat wizard",I have a 1-12 cabinet that it can go in.I will use My 4-10 with my 100 watt head(I know it's less than 96db because I have a 96db speaker and it's not as loud as it).If my calculations are correct 20 watts through 103db speaker should be about the same as the 100 watt through the 4-10(92db est)Spyder

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Mon, Mar 12th, 2007 @ 12:50 ( . )

i found this calculator the other day... it might help: [link]

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'gigable power output from 30 watt SE?'
Author:JohnA (registered user: 880 posts )
Date: Mon, Mar 12th, 2007 @ 14:14 ( . )

Get efficient speakers (as some others have mentioned here). Beyond that - or maybe even before that - place the amp so that you can hear it and get feedback from it. Mic it and run it through the board for the rest of the house (and the monitors for other band members, if necessary).

If you're using an HO I suspect that the preamp is really the main limit on your clean head room. (I'm basing this just on a look at the schematic and from having listened to the clips of others - I haven't built one myself.) Just eyeballing the schematic I suspect that when you roll the gains off far enough to not push the cathode follower against the rails you aren't providing enough swing out of the tone stack to drive the power tube right up to saturation (i.e. where the amp still sounds "clean" but if you scope the signal you see it beginning to compress just slightly - thus sounding louder).

I.e. I think on the HO design the CF is going to clip hard on one-half the signal before the power tubes get really pushed. That's just a guess so all you HO fans don't flame me too hard :)

Anyway, if I'm right adding another power tube in parallel is not going to help much at all with clean head room.

JohnA
[link]


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'gigable power with 2 Eminence wizards'
Author:Spyder (guest: search)
Date: Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 20:48 ( . )

Hey,I got 2 Eminence Redcoat wizards(Thursday)103db each put them in a open back cab.I then pluged my modded valve jr.(5 watts)into it and it can handle the drummer,no clean's.If I still had the 18 watt lite II it would have plenty of headroom,so the SEL I'm building now should be good.My 4-10 cab has a 120 watt(ss)head on it with the volume at 12:00 to keep up with the drummer.I will upgrade it to 100db Eminence's at some point.I never understood what to look for in a speaker except tone thanks.Spyder

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'gigable power with 2 Eminence wizards'
Author:AletheianAlex (registered user: 3532 posts )
Date: Sat, Mar 17th, 2007 @ 21:41 ( . )

Sweet... glad it worked out.

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